Inside the Judging Room

Most of us have spotted a gold medal sticker on a bottle of wine, but what happens behind the scenes to earn it? 

Host Kellie Tannock takes you inside the world of wine shows, where hundreds of wines are judged blind, reputations are built, and the quality of an entire wine region is put under the microscope.  

From judges and scoring systems, to the value wine shows bring to both producers and consumers, our guests help uncover how this mystical process helps shape the wines we enjoy.

Thanks to Pip Heaford of the Margaret River Wine Association, winemaker Glenn Goodall and Associate Judge, Ulrika Larson (pictured judging at the Margaret River Wine Show).

Thanks for listening and if you've enjoyed this podcast, please share with your family and friends. It will help us to keep this show going if you leave us a review.

For more inspiration on visiting the Margaret River Region follow @margaretriver on Instagram or explore www.margaretriver.com.

This show was recorded at RMR 101.9FM, Margaret River Region.

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

Kellie Tannock 0:01

Welcome to Capes Conversations, sharing the stories that make the Margaret River region a truly special place to live and visit. Hello, I'm Kellie Tannock. Thanks for joining me. Most of us have spotted a gold medal sticker on a bottle of wine, but what happens behind the scenes to earn it? This week on Capes Conversations, we're taking you inside the world of wine shows, where hundreds of wines are judged blind, reputations are built, and the quality of an entire wine region is put under the microscope. From judges and scoring systems to the value wine shows bring to both producers and consumers, we'll uncover how this mystical process helps shape the wines we enjoy. My first guest is Pip Heaford, who has organised more than a dozen wine shows with the Margaret River Wine Association. Welcome, Pip.

Pip Heaford 0:49

Hi Kellie.

Kellie Tannock 0:50

So, Pip, you must have overseen thousands of wines poured and tasted at the Margaret River Wine Show over the years.

Pip Heaford 0:56

That would be right.

Kellie Tannock 0:57

Give us a peek behind the curtain then. What goes on at the Margaret River Wine Show?

Pip Heaford 0:59

We invite the Margaret River producers to enter their wines, and they are judged by four panels of judges. We have uh three senior judges and two associates per panel. The wines are assessed, the scores are given out of a hundred, and we determine the bronze, silver, and gold, and then the trophies of the show.

Kellie Tannock 1:23

So, Pip, you've got all these experts lined up. What are they looking for in a wine and how do they go about awarding medals?

Pip Heaford 1:27

The judges look at the wines individually, and they're looking at a colour, aroma, and taste, and they score the wines out of a hundred. They then come together as a panel and discuss those wines further and to reach agreement on which wines they should think should receive a bronze, a silver, or a gold. And then at the end of the judging, we have the top golds going through to what we call a trophy taste of, and that's where the trophies, the winning wines of the show are decided. So it's something that people are naturally curious about. So why is the judging not open to the public? Judging's very focused, and we need a quiet environment so they can concentrate, they look at the wines individually, and then they'll come together as a panel for discussion. After judging has finished, we do open up to exhibitors. Exhibitors are invited to an exhibitor tasting, and they can come along and look at all the wines and have a chat with the judges about the scores that are being given.

Kellie Tannock 2:22

What do you look for in a judge? How do you become a judge? And is it a very specialised task or uh do you need expertise? Do you need qualifications? How does it work?

Pip Heaford 2:32

Yeah, absolutely. So there's a lot of experience involved. Our judges are selected by our wine show committee. We bring in an international judge who will become an ambassador for the region, will take take the knowledge of our wines away and showcase them to the world, hopefully. And then with our national judges, it's a mix of winemakers and we bring in wine media and wine buyers as well. You mentioned blind tasting. What is a blind tasting? What do you mean by that? The wines are poured out of sight of the judges, so the judges don't know whose wine is in the glass in front of them. And this is so it creates an even playing field for the assessment of the wines.

Kellie Tannock 3:10

And wine shows are held throughout the world, as we know. There's a system you have to follow to keep the integrity and the consistency with the other shows. But does that make it harder to innovate for someone like the Margaret River wine show?

Pip Heaford 3:22

There is a very strict code that we adhere to for the quality and the excellence of the show, of course. But no, we brought in some little fun innovations over the years. We have a pink jacket trophy, which is awarded to the best rose, and it's a very nice custom-built jacket that gets awarded to the winner and presented to the previous year which winner at a rose event down at the beach each year in celebration of Rose. We also have some excellence awards that we incorporate into the show. So there's a viticulture and sustainability excellence awards and a wine tourism champion. And just more recently, we've introduced the best sustainable wine, and the winner of that receives a prize to attend a conference overseas. And yes, little things like that can add to the show ongoing.

Kellie Tannock 4:10

Well, the overseas conference prize sounds like a uh a good one, but I like the sound of the pink jacket. Is that hotly contested in Margaret River? And Pippi Fed, as we said, you've organized a dozen Margaret River wine shows now. What have been some of the special moments or highlights for you?

Pip Heaford 4:25

It is.

Kellie Tannock 4:25

And Pip Heaford as we said, you've organized a dozen Margaret River wine shows now. What have been some of the special moments or highlights for you?

Pip Heaford 4:25

I'd have to say it's the um relationship we've built with our volunteers and our stewards. We have a fantastic team that come back year after year to help us in the lead up to the show and during the show. And it's great relationship building.

Kellie Tannock 4:38

Pip it sounds like a dream job for a judge. How many wines are you actually tasting?

Pip Heaford 4:42

The show itself sees about 650 wines entered, and there's three days of judging. Each day a judge would look at about a hundred wines each. And at any one time, they kind of got up to 30 wines in front of them.

Kellie Tannock 4:56

I'm Kellie Tannock, and today we're looking at wine shows.

unknown 7:47

R

Kellie Tannock 7:53

This is Capes Conversations. I'm Kellie Tannock, and today we're focusing on wine shows and how they work. We have the Margaret River Wine Show each October, but as we've heard, there are many regional, national, and international shows. I'm joined now by Xanadu Winemaker and small winemaker himself, Glenn Goodall. And first, congratulations on winning the Prime Minister's Trophy for Champion Wine of Show at the National Wine Show this year.

Glenn Goodall 8:18

Oh, thank you. It's a great achievement for us and a great achievement for Margaret River.

Kellie Tannock 8:21

But you're no stranger to medals even as a small winemaker. You've got two hats.

Glenn Goodall 8:25

Yeah, uh, my wife and I have also got a small brand La Kooki , and that picked up a trophy at the National Show as well for Chenin Blanc.

Kellie Tannock 8:31

But this isn't a one-off for Xanadu. It's you and Xanadu have enjoyed many trophies and gold medals over the years from different wine shows. Glenn Goodall, what is the secret to your team's wine show success?

Glenn Goodall 8:42

I think the answer is in the question, really, it's the team. I think one of the things that I really value is having good people around me and really valuing our growers as well. I try and spend as much time as I can in the vineyards and I walk a lot of rows. But I think the success of you know any sort of industry is around relationships as much as anything else. So having had a great team, past and present, and and really great relationships with growers who are actually buying into what we want to achieve, has probably been the secret to our success.

Kellie Tannock 9:12

And so wine show and judging and all that suggests competition. You're all about teamwork. How does uh the competition aspect sit with you as a winemaker?

Glenn Goodall 9:20

Oh, it's great. There's great outcomes when you when you do do very well in in wine shows, but um, it's also just a great benchmarking exercise. The whole wine show system, which a lot of it started in like the the AG shows, it was about creating best of breed. So it was an opportunity just to benchmark your wines, get feedback on your wines, and know when you're doing things well by being judged by people who are um experts in that area.

Kellie Tannock 9:43

So there's no sort of egos involved, it's all validation?

Glenn Goodall 9:46

Oh no, they are there's they're they're they're they're not our egos, but I I think at the end of the day, uh Margaret River first, you know, if another Margaret River producer does well, it's it benefits all of us.

Kellie Tannock 9:57

So does a trophy or a medal make a difference either to a big winemaker or a small winemaker? How does that work?

Glenn Goodall 10:03

Yeah, I think some of it depends on the uh on the trophy and and the exposure that that trophy gets. Like not every wine show is broadcast on the six o'clock news. But in the case of when we won the Jimmy Watson trophy uh a while back now, we sold through four vintages of that wine in one calendar year. If you look at the this recent show result with the Prime Minister's trophy for our 23 cabinet, that would have been about a year in market as a result of that award and some other awards, it sold out in six months. And in the case of a little little producer like La Kooki with our Chenin Blanc winning the trophy at the national show, um, we sold out pretty much within a week. It's really important also as a wine producer that it empowers you to send that information out with your salespeople and your distributors and and in turn the gatekeepers. So it's people who are selling the wines, the people in the industry are probably more aware of what happens in the show system than a lot of consumers. So it's that avenue of being able to communicate uh how good your wines are that's really important part of the show system.

Kellie Tannock 11:01

Yeah, so does it take on a different context with this wine glut that we keep hearing about and um the so-called um reduction in wine drinking?

Glenn Goodall 11:10

As long as Margaret River is focused at the premium end, I think that you know we're pretty well positioned and uh you know we punch well above our weight division when it comes to wine shows, not just San Diego, but the Margaret River wine region, and I think that puts us in pretty good stead.

Kellie Tannock 11:27

Give us some context around that because I know we are a tiny producer in terms of volume at a national level, but we actually punch above our weight division, don't we?

Glenn Goodall 11:35

Oh, totally, yeah. Like by crush size, we're around about 2%. But when you look at the premium wine market, which is a lot of that's defined by price point, you know, we're we're up around 15-20%. As far as like performance in the wine shows, John Jens been a who's a uh restauranteur in Perth has been a great advocate for for Western Australia. He's got stats which are just to blow your minds. Like with I think Cabernet trophies and on the national show circuit, I think Western Australia and Margaret River in particular has got something like 85-90% of those trophies. And that that's from a crush that is uh a fraction of a percent of the national crush.

Kellie Tannock 12:08

That says everything, doesn't it? So do different shows bring different rewards? I mean, is the Margaret River wine show, is that um something that's really special to you and to local winemakers?

Glenn Goodall 12:18

Uh the local show is always great because it's a an opportunity for us to all get together. And given that you know, Margaret River does punch well above its weight division, the the wines that we are competing against are all from arguably the best wine-growing region in Australia. So it's it doesn't it doesn't diminish the the importance of that show. In fact, it's it's uh it actually makes it a bit more exciting because it's on a real level playing field, and there are quite a few producers who don't exhibit in national shows, but they support their local show. And so from that perspective, it's a really good opportunity to do that and and have Margaret River's Night of Nights, the Gala Award dinner. It's like everyone gets to frock up. I remember Brian Crozer, who was the chair in the early days, he said he loved coming to the Margaret River dinners because he found that the definition of formal was footwear.

Kellie Tannock 13:02

Yes, that sounds about right. The next time someone does see a medal on a bottle, what should they know about what's gone into that effort?

Glenn Goodall 13:10

Certainly, first and foremost, that it's been judged very, very rigorously, and it's judged in a blind environment and by you know wine professionals from all sectors, not just winemaking, but often retail someliers, um, and uh so from that perspective, I think they can give people confidence that that that wine has been uh judged really rigorously and it and it it goes through a lot of processes to be able to achieve that gold medal. And also, not everyone realizes that it's not like the Olympics where there's a gold, a silver, and a bronze. You can have five or six gold medals in a class and five or six silvers in a class. So it's really just a recognition of quality rather than a you came first, second, or third.

Kellie Tannock 13:50

Well, how do you then celebrate with your team? How do you make them feel the win?

Glenn Goodall 13:54

That's a really good question. I think we probably need to celebrate more. The first thing we do is open a bottle when when when we can and share that around.

Kellie Tannock 14:01

And lastly, from from your perspective, Glenn Goodall, what impact does the Margaret River wine show have on the local community?

Glenn Goodall 14:07

I think because the Margs Show is local, as I said, it's a great opportunity for everyone to get together. But I also think that the Margaret River wine show is special not just because of celebrating the wines. They've got they've had some other initiatives as well, like Cellar Door Person of the Year, the Viticulturist Awards, um, sustainability awards. So it's it's not all just about the wine quality, t's about all of the other aspects of the people within our wine community.

Kellie Tannock 14:35

Thanks so much to Glenn Goodall for your thoughts on the wine show system and all its benefits. Here's a song that describes vintage when the Cabernet and Shiraz grapes stain fingers. It's Eskimo Joe, Black Fingernails, Red Wine.

Kellie Tannock 18:54

I'm Kellie Tannock. This is Capes Conversations, and we're getting a behind-the-scenes look at wine shows. I'm joined now by Ulrika Larson, who has honed her own professional skills as a judge at the Margaret River Wine Show. Welcome, Ulrika. Thank you. Now your role at Claire Alt Stryker is visitor-facing in the Cellador and Wine Club, not making the wines, but you voluntarily took on a steward's role, and now you're an associate judge. So first could you perhaps explain what a steward and an associate judge does?

Ulrika Larson 19:23

Absolutely. A steward is uh part of a team that help organise the show, so they help pour the wines for the judges, and then an associate judge, they judge the wines together with the other judges.

Kellie Tannock 19:34

And what made you become interested in being a judge and getting involved with a wine show in the first place?

Ulrika Larson 19:40

Well, as you probably can tell, I have a bit of an accent. I wasn't born here, and I come from a country pretty far away. I come from Sweden, and in Sweden there is there's no wine industry. We don't grow grapes because it's cold there, so grapes can't really grow. I came to Australia in 2005 with really an interest in wine, but no knowledge of the wine in industry as such. And I'm a bit of a nerd, so I just wanted to get involved and learn more and more about it. I got lucky I got my first job in the industry pretty quickly, and I just wanted to be involved and learn. I didn't know what the wine show was. I'm probably where a lot of the listeners are right now and asking questions and how do they judge wines and how does that process happen? And I was interested. So I just contacted the association and and put my hand up.

Kellie Tannock 20:22

So it's quite a leap going from sell a door to actually judging the quality of wines. What sort of skills and how did you develop that expertise in between?

Ulrika Larson 20:30

Yeah, I think I've been lucky always working with employers that appreciate my opinion and my thoughts on the wine. So ever since my first job into the wine industry, I had an owner and a winemaker there that really valued my thoughts on the wines. And I think perhaps I have an an interest in a natural palate, perhaps, on tasting wine and picking certain flavours and aromas in wine.

Kellie Tannock 20:51

On that point, I guess do all of us have the same palate, or is it something that some of us have more nuanced, or some of us have a greater sense of the differences in the wines, or is it something that you can actually learn?

Ulrika Larson 21:03

I think you can learn it. I think most of us have the palate and the ability to do it. It's probably just forming the pathways of being able to then pick the quality of the wine and picking certain flavours. But I think it definitely can be taught. All you need is a I think a good passion for it.

Kellie Tannock 21:17

And so on the flip side, how has the wine show helped you in your sellador career?

Ulrika Larson 21:22

Interesting question. I've been in my in this for the working for the same company for 14 years. So I would say it's helped my career, which might sound funny because I definitely haven't jumped on too many opportunities having stayed where I have for so long, but I'm very happy where I am. And so even working for the same employer, it's giving me opportunities to to grow within the business and and being confident in the conversations that I can have with winemakers and peers and critics that I host. Because I can talk about wines and I understand what they say about wines, and I feel very confident in those conversations because when people wine people like us talk about wines, it is a different language, and it can be confronting for people that are not in. That world. So I feel confident now that I can hold those conversations.

Kellie Tannock 22:04

So, where does this judging journey go for you from here? Is it something that you want to sort of become more senior and acknowledged about?

Ulrika Larson 22:11

For me, joining the world of wine shows was more of an interest of learning of about the industry and how it was done and meeting more people and broadening my horizons. That question is interesting because you probably assume that I would say, absolutely, I want to be this world of famous judge. But for me, I I probably get what I want out of it doing maybe one or two shows a year. I meet some beautiful people, and you know, my palate gets trained, I get to benchmark our wines, and I can take that information back to my team and host tastings within within our business as well, and do that. So I have no plans on judging more than what I'm doing at the moment. So probably one or two shows a year, and there's a beauty in being an associate judge. So as an associate judge, that is the space for learning. Every judge is so open and encouraging and supportive of you, and I ask a lot of questions, and I think that's in my nature to do, and as an associate judge, that's really encouraged to do. So where maybe perhaps if you go up to a full judge, they expect you to be probably a bit more confident and firm, perhaps, in your in your decisions and in your scoring, where my mind is quite open, and I'm very happy to have those conversations and learning.

Kellie Tannock 23:25

And what advice would you give to others who are perhaps in the hospitality side of the wine industry who might be considering volunteering to take part in the wine show?

Ulrika Larson 23:33

Well, I would say we need you, because we get a lot of winemakers and viticulturalists that come and help steward for the show. They have never polished a glass in their life, and stewarding is a lot of polishing, so we need people with hospitality background. Usually people from a hospitality background are confident in stressful situations. It is a pretty stressful situation in the fact, same as hospitality is, there's a lot of people, there's some pressure, there's definitely certain time frames that need to be met. A show that's run with hospitality people usually is very smooth. So I would say come and do it. It is very supportive, it's fun, you're going to meet a lot of new people.

Kellie Tannock 24:10

Sounds great. I have got one question I've been dying to ask, and that is with all of those wines being tasted, how much of it is actually consumed, if any, and come on, don't tell me you don't ever really consume the whole of a really good wine.

Ulrika Larson 24:25

Absolutely, we do. We spit most of it. So we taste, I think Pip touched on that earlier, that we might taste up to 100 wines a day, and sometimes even more than that, because every wine we taste multiple times as well. So we might have 30 wines in front of us at any one time, but all of those wines we taste maybe five or six times. So we absolutely spit almost all of it. And then, of course, come to trophy tasting, and you've got your favourite wine of the show, a little bit of that might sneak down the throat for sure. At the end of the day, most of us have had enough of wine and we actually have a beer together.

Kellie Tannock 24:57

That's terrific. Thank you so much, Ulrika. Thanks to all of my guests, Pip Heaford, Glenn Goodall, and Ulrika Larson. And while much of the work of a wine show happens behind closed doors, its impact reaches far beyond the judging room. Wine shows help maintain standards, encourage excellence, support professional development, and reinforce the reputation that Margaret River has earned as one of the world's great wine regions. That reputation attracts visitors, supports local businesses, and benefits the broader community. I'm Kellie Tannock, and this is Cape's Conversations, proudly sponsored by Margaret River Busselton Tourism Association.